Oprah Interviews Dr. David R. Hawkins: Power Versus Force Discussion
It’s talk to me this whole series with Oprah Winfrey Hello everybody and welcometo Talk to me. I’m Oprah and I’d like to thank you for continuing to join me here on our Soulseries on XM 156. One of my favorite things to talk about in life is how we got to be who we aremanifested in this body and the higher consciousness that has led us to thisplace over the last several months with an array of spiritual teachers we’ve hadthe opportunity to delve into many facets of our being our spirit the soul fromGary executive’s premise that we achieve authentic power and aligning ourpersonalities with our soul which is something that I know to found to be true. To Dr. Tobin Hart’s insight into the secret spiritual lives of children whichwas fascinating because children come into the world and they come trailing thevapors from the from the other world. It’s so wonderful to know that especially for those of you who have children wecrack the souls code just a bit with Dr. James Hillman we interpreted the law ofattraction with Esther Hicks and Michael OCA and with Susan Turner McElroy weembrace the deep soul connection that we all share with our animal companionsthose are just some of the people we’ve been talking to over the past severalweeks in our Soul series. Well one aspect of the soul we have yet to explore that I had infinitely foundfascinating is the idea that there exists ascending levels of consciousness. Stay with me people a sort of ladder of spiritual enlightenment on which oursouls can be measured consciousness map. And I came to this this theory this idea as presented by Dr. David R. Hawkins. I read a book not too long ago called power versus force. And Dr Hawkins says there also exists a defensible scientifically based methodthat confirms the reality of spiritual truth. Dr Hawkins is an author. He is a spiritual teacher who is on the leading edge of consciousness research. Though best known for his book that I just happened someone presented me withseveral weeks ago but he’s best known for power versus force. The hidden determinants of human behavior. But has written many other books his sixth and most recent release in thisprogressive series is called discovery of the presence of God. So I’m really happy that Dr Hawkins can join us from Phoenix. Warm sunny Phoenix Arizona today. Welcome to talk to me. Very very nice to be here in the spirit Rivera. Well I am you know the way the way life works things coming to your life as youare prepared to receive them. And so I have been. Yes that happens I’ve been studying many other authors and spiritual materialfor the past 20 years. And I had not come across your book. I guess I just wasn’t prepared or ready for it until recently. But as I just said I found it infinitely infinitely fascinating. Your first book Power Versus force and for all of our many listeners who are asI was until several weeks ago not familiar with your esteemed work I’d like foryou to begin with the story that you told in the I guess preface or introductionof the book. How back in back in the day. As I say today you were a paper boy in rural Wisconsin and there there came astorm can you start there. The answer to my life was somewhat unusual. I remember everything was a complete blank until suddenly at age 3 at age 3suddenly it was like klieg lights got turned on in a dark stadium fromnothingness. Suddenly I went into shock realizing I existed. So at age 3 I’m pondering is the highest truth existence or nonexistence. AndI know I read that and I read that that’s like the opening pages that went whatkind of three you or youor I was a precocious three or you know. So you actually remember at age three having those thoughts about existenceversus nonexistence and fearing that you know if there was an is then is not isalso correct yeah as it is a very stunning confrontation as a three year old. It took me 35 years to solve it to transcend that level of consciousness. Wow. OK. I’m going to let I’m going to presume that many of our listeners are as I wasseveral weeks ago. They haven’t read the book so I’m going to presume that most people haven’t readthe book so I’m going to speak to you as a person who has read it but I’m askingthe questions for people who have not. So that story about you being a paper boy. You said that you were in rural Wisconsin. You write had a 17 mile route. I think that was I thought that was pretty extensive. How old were you then with the paper route. Oh twelve twelve years on that. There was a there was it was winter in Wisconsin as we know can be brutal. And you were caught miles from home in a blizzard and the temperature as we knowcan drop you know with windchill to below zero in this time I think you said itwas 20 degrees below zero extremely cold and it was pitch black and my feet werealways 18 miles long. I still was miles from home and the wind was so cold I had to find a shelterfrom the cold. But I was out in the barren stretches of farm farmland and with the snow ispiled up by the plows over the winter in Wisconsin and by that time the snow onthe side of the highway was probably six eight feet high. So what I did is I broke through the crust of the snow and I quickly dug out alittle hole in the snow just to get out of the wind andso I climbed into this refuge and almost almost instantly a state overcame me. That makes me weep if I think about it nowas a fusion of love beyond all description also it was timeless and it was itwas exquisite. It was also the core of who I was. It was more who I was than the personal self and this experience lasted forinfinite time and I knew that that was my reality. And what melted the personal self and the sort of most non-existence was theinfinite power of the love. The love was overwhelming so were you dying were you when I read that I wasthinking what you describe. There was a was what some people call a near-death experience. So had you not. And so so cold that you were dying. No it wasn’t near death. It wasn’t like a miraculous relief from the ferocity of the cold when thatpersonal self dissolved into that which is more yourself and spiritual languageing it’s else is self for the capitalists and set itself with its smallness. And later my father came and found me and this. It was a state of bliss. And my father came to get me. Also I realized I did not have to come you know reactivate the body orreactivate human life. You’re free to leave. And it’s happened to me many times even now you can leave anytime you like. But my father came and found me finally and he shot my leg. And at that moment I had to decide what I read on this life reactivate thisbody. And I knew if I allowed myself to leave the body he would think I had died andspend his life in grief. I couldn’t do that to my father. Yeah. You say in the book that there was there was a great reluctance to return toyour body and all that that entailed but because you love your father dearlybecause of his you could feel his anguish or see his anguish. He would have felt that he had left me and that I had diedbecause he believed in death. And then the state realized that death is not a possibility but to the person ina mortal body they presume there is such a thing. So I reactivated the body and did it it for his sake andthen it came back. Yes sir except for lack of a better expression you came back. What do you attribute to this happening. You know I asked you earlier about was it because you described that it was socold and icy that the wind had ripped the newspapers and that your clothes werefrozen stiff. And so I was thinking that it was because you’d gotten so cold and I’ve heardpeople talk about freezing to death where there’s this warm feeling that comesover you know. Yeah but you’re saying it wasn’t near death. You’re saying it wasn’t. It wasn’t near death. And so what do you think it’s feeling too. I think some kind of a karmic spiritual destiny because other profound statescame on uncalled for not in stressful situations and non stressful situationsthat were as extreme. In fact even more extreme. And finally to the degree that I really left my life in the east which was avery successful life and moved out to the country where I could spend some yearsmeditating and getting used to this over the different state of consciousness. I’m talking to Dr. David Hawkins about his book Power Versus force and he wasjust explaining to us those of you who are just joining us here in XM 156. The experience he had as a young boy I don’t know is that would you call it outof body or really in in an inner biosphere. It wasn’t the outer body because I had later hit out of body experiences they’requite different. Now this was an altered altered state in which this small self disappeared intothe large self and the sense of personal self disappeared and that happened evenmore so later in life. The prior sense of a personal self is never returned. Right nowI’m am the witness of what is being said but I am not the author. So is the larger self the soul. Classically the small self is the ego self right narcissistic core and the largeself is the spirit soul. Yes. And so it’s like periodically in my life the personal self would dissolvedissolve right into the infinite power of the of the spiritual self. Yes. Mm hmm. Okay. So you never discussed that experience with anybody as a boy because you saythere was no context. We don’t even talk about it. But after this experience though I understand from what I’m reading in powerversus force after this experience this altered state experience that you had inthe snow after this blissful state you describe in the book that you had gone tothe depths of hell and then experienced a level of consciousness alsoindescribable in its bliss. You felt the presence of God or what you called at the time in the book thepresence this loving presence. I remember you saying you were in love with everyone. Oh yes I still am. It took me years to handle it because to even interact with anybody who wasloving I would break out in tears. And really this is common in certain spiritual groups. There is a period you go through where anything beautiful and love makes youcry. I mean they’re speaking to you because your energy is so loving and I could youthat same cheerfulness beginning to emerge you know. I would say Oh thank you. I would look at. Thank you for saying an airport one would look at the other you could see thattender love. And I would. All right. Well I know I remember I remember reading in the in power versus force the linewhere you said as I looked at each person myself shown forth from their eyes andI wondered how did I get into all these bodies one’s self one God divinity isdescribed as transcendent. That’s out there elsewhere in time and place. God is imminent. In other words the very core and source of one’s existence and beingness islife. And God is the core of life and life as we know it is the manifestation ofdivinity. Well doing what you know knowing what you know does it frustrate you that warsare still being fought in the name of religion and people fighting over who theyclaimed God to be and what they claim got to be that frustrating to you knowbecause I see the nature of human consciousness and the purpose of our lifehere. This is the world of maximum opportunity the maximum gain and positive karma andundoing of negative karma that’s old fashioned terminology let’s say coming fromBuddhism but to undo the negative and to achieve the positive. So this is the world. That’s what this world is for. As you see it. Yes this robot by many years of research and we demonstrate this very often itlectures is that is perfect as it is if its purpose then is the evolution ofyour soul then it’s perfect because how could you perfect your soul if youcouldn’t get a chance to say no to evil and say yes to God’s goodness and loveyou. One of the things that I love that you say is it’s only the illusion ofindividuality that is the origin of all suffering when one realizes that one isthe universe complete and that one with all that is forever without in the nofurther suffering is possible. Well the question is how do we all begin to realize that you know in recentweeks we have in recent weeks we’ve just been talking about people just tryingto understand that they have some control over their realities by the way theythink about their lives and inhales Yeah you believe that. Right. Well you can’t transcend the world to your master at your family first your massto the world and then you let go your attachments to it. You let go of your desires and diversions. One of my goals here on earth is to be my prayer for myself is to live thehighest level of consciousness possible for me incarnated in this body with thisego. In this lifetime that is that is my constant. And I’ve had that prayer for about 20 years I can feel myself getting closer. You know just in my appreciation of the simplest things finding in the midst ofyou know chaos and craziness and stuff I can just still myself that myexperience is completely different than the experience of other people arehaving around me. So that means I’m getting closer right. You’re you’re striving for unconditional unconditional love. What is it that love your radiate out to the world and that’s where thereligion. Well you say that in power versus force you say that the common place and Godare not distinct but to live with care and kindness is all that is necessary. The rest reveals itself in due time willing to be loving towards all of life andall of its expressions transforms everybody not all your own life but everyonearound you. And it’s an interesting experiment is when you go to a store or buy a newspaperwhatever you do. You know you just smile lovingly at the person and see how beautiful they are asa person and and say thank you. Well when you say thank you to Kirk’s like a lot of them will drop their teethit just look at you like huh. I mean nobody some love. So thank you. With that intense gratitude really. And they look at you with shock and surprise. Yes you can see that. What you’re not what you do in the world is what you would become. So what you have become begins to influence all of life around you. And people look forward to your life if you your regular customer theirnewsstand that guy will start to light up the minute he sees you’re coming downthe street. It’s just an amazing transformative effect that we have on others. So I encourage people to strive on this earthly plane for unconditional lovingthis unconditional love everyone else specifically you say. People wonder how does one reach the state of awareness that you spoke of longextended state of bliss that you had where you weren’t even able to function inthe real world sometimes. That’s right. I was like you know as I’m reading that I’m thinking I was so of that whateverthat is. So that’s an extended state of bliss. That’s what I would like you get blissed out. Well if you do a spiritual work continuously. Don’t forget I did it continuously. I mean nonstop constantly surrendering everything to God and letting go likethat change it to either avoided or the desire to grieve it or to resist it. So eventually what happens is rather profound spiritual states. You know you read about them in the book. That’s one thing but they begin to spontaneously occur and they can pretty muchtake you out of the world. I mean the infinite peace is beyond joy and ecstasy was the joy I was in theecstasy and everything has to be surrendered to go. You know that’s a drug also. So you have to clarify you went to 0 to see in the purest sense not the drama. It was an emotion of joy that you’ve never taken drugs and have you never knowthey had nothing to do with that. OK. There’s some other things you described sounded like a drug trip. I was thinking well I wonder what that was. So that’s why you’re that you know you’ve got the secret of why drugs are happy. Hardly anybody knows why drugs are addicting. But I know why it’s because the levels of consciousness at the highest are joyand ecstasy and drug does is sedate the lower levels of consciousness theordinary anxiety fear guilt and the drugs the dates the lower levels ofconsciousness and allows you to experience the reality of what you’re truthfullyare. That is infinite joy and peace and existence. So the drug. So then the person because they’re naive thinks oh it’s the drug that did that. It is not the drug that did that. It’s the drug that blood blotted out. What was drowning it out. And now you experience the reality of who you really are. Now the thing is how can you reach that state without the drugs by letting go ofthe lower levels of consciousness hate your fear shame and avarice all thosethings you see. How do we do though. How do we do that. So let’s this is this is great. Now we can just just stay focused here. Yeah. That spiritual work that heightened state of awareness that you’re talking aboutand you say that you share your own experiences with us in the book and notethat you follow the steps because they’re so simple. First you say we have to have the intense desire to reach that state. Know me. And then maybe I drive to know God reach God and reach a divine state could bein for you know OK. So you’re saying for you I’m thinking it might have been inborn for you. If you’re looking at your consciousness at three years old and are aware thatthat’s what you’re looking at. Yes I was aware of that. OK. The first thing is to have intense desire and then a discipline to act withconstant and universal forgiveness and gentleness without exception. You say the discipline to act with constant and universal forgiveness andgentleness without exception. That’s it. To love. To love everything as as it is whether one has to be compassionate towardeverything including one’s own self and thoughts. They’re not wanting a thing to be different not wanting things to be differentas through really or through that then. Then your view of the world transforms. So you say Yeah I can remember walking down an alley in New York City that verybody with consider ugly bombs there and rats and busted up garbage cans. But in a beautiful state it looked almost to me like an Impressionisticpainting. Here is this adorable trash can. And here is this cute little rat running and all over. And this gentle old man stumbling down the stairs. And it was like stunning beauty and perfection and I saw the perfection of allthat exists and that the reason we can’t see it is man projects aren’teverything is judge mental perception. Mm hmm. If you remove your perception you’ll see that everything that exists isabsolutely perfect. Mm hmm. One of the easiest places to see this is nature. So you say well there’s weeds and those are flowers. But when you reach a certain state of of it’s not trying to change the world. You look at the weed and you suddenly see a weed it’s a stunning piece ofsculpture. You just grab the nearest piece of weed out and out in the garden and look atit. It’s stunning perfection. It’s sculpture. No human could do that in that delicate perfection. You see the perfection and beauty of all that shines forth. Yes it’s our perception of it. I got that. It’s our perception of it and what we have told ourselves that a weed representsthat makes us feel that a weed is less beautiful than a blooming flower. So that’s the difference between perception and essence. In other words perception is what you reject then for the world in essence iswhat it really is. And of course Socrates made that distinction and said every man pursues only thegood. It’s just that he doesn’t know what the real good is. Well yes you should know since Socrates and Plato were your playmates. They may what a do you think or is there an awakening that is to occur fromtragic episodes. I in my view of it mankind as a race is evolutionary. Right. And that is consciousness is evolving over the centuries. So it goes up and he goes down. Where are we now. And don’t forget oh man has been at war. Ninety seven percent of recorded time. Ninety seven percent of time. So 30 percent of the time is probably too sick or too poor. I don’t know. But anyway finally 70 percent of recorded time is seven presented time. Look the wars the barbarians that went on for centuries you know the East andthe West. We’re at war for well over a thousand years worth of going over thousands ofyears. It’s very very rare for there to be no war anywhere in the world and probablyonly happens during the plague. Everybody is too sick. So man I’m just here as in I can’t be you do because I don’t I don’t have toback you. Well that man inherits the ego. You might say is his animal nature that he then eats spiritually evolved andtranscends. And if you think of it comically you know those that would deny the reality andtruth of Almighty God are denied the fruits is everything happening for a reasonhere on Earth. Do you believe from an infinite viewpoint. Yes it has to do with options and choices and propensity for choices and it alsohas to do with quantum mechanics it has to do with called the Xeno effect. The more often you make even the more often you choose a certain alternate themore likely you are to choose that again and by intention consciousness effectsthe phenomena in the world. A scientific experiment cannot be done twice because the fact that you’reobserving it has already changed the outcome. So our intention for ourself and others in the world affects the world. So you’re concerned for them. My concern for them all of our concern for them alters the world. Yes. You say be passionate for God not for belief systems. Yes you will make an ism out of everything. You can’t imagine our world is so politicized you can’t you can’t mentionanything in this world that somebody has and doesn’t have a political label onit. You know either left or right or something some kind of a miserable thing. Yeah. Yeah. So be patient. For God not for belief systems. Yeah. So because the world gets so contentious and the work on book book I’m workingon now is called spiritual reality and modern man. That dilemma. How can man discern truth when the with the media the press everything presentsa edited selection of what’s going on out there. You know in a slanted view it’s been a joy to talk to you. I was really looking forward to talking to you because I have your faceunderlined and underlined and so to have an opportunity to question you aboutsome of them. I’m glad to know it really never was a drug trip that it was really you going tothe different levels of your consciousness and really I feel from reading all ofyour books. A more enlightened being here in this present state. So thank you so much and I love your quote When you said simple kindness tooneself and all that lives is the most powerful transformational force of all. So thank you for your book Power Versus force and for this conversation. Thanks Dr Hawkins. Thank you for your service to this world. Thank you. Thank you. All right. More Soul series next week on XM 156. Keep on talking to.